How to Build a Differentiated and Profitable Brand in the Market with Ozan Irturk by Kazuki Nakayashiki

How to Build a Differentiated and Profitable Brand in the Market with Ozan Irturk

Kazuki Nakayashiki

Dec 9, 2024 7:50 PM

Summary

Introduction to Ozan Irturk (00:06 - 00:31): Ozan Irturk, a brand strategist and founder of Frontera, specializes in helping B2B SMEs with lead marketing through positioning and differentiation to create profitable brands.
Journey to Founding Frontera (00:57 - 02:01): Ozan's curiosity led him to create a brand strategy consultancy that originally started as a newsletter and blog focused on mental models. Audience questions drove the shift from sharing insights to consulting.
Strategies for Audience Building (03:01 - 03:49): To reach his first 1,000 readers, Ozan utilized platforms like Instagram and Reddit, while honing his SEO skills, which helped some articles go viral on Hacker News.
Content Creation Process (08:46 - 12:30): Ozan emphasizes a structured note-taking process, using Apple Notes for quick ideas and Notion for organizing thoughts, allowing him to integrate inspiration from everyday experiences into his writing.
Branding Mistakes (18:33 - 20:45): Common pitfalls for B2B SMEs include imitating bigger competitors, diluting messages by targeting too many audiences, and taking action without a coherent strategy.
Profit-Led Branding (22:46 - 23:21): Ozan advocates for a focus on positioning and messaging as foundational to branding, distinguishing it from the aesthetics that often characterize traditional branding approaches.
Legacy and Impact (54:16 - 54:52): Ozan believes in following curiosity rather than aiming to create a legacy, valuing the positive impact on individuals and businesses as a fulfilling result of his work.

Transcript

Welcome back to another episode of Glasp Talk. Today, we are excited to have Ozan Irturk with us. Ozan is a brand strategist and the founder of Frontera, a consultancy that helps B2B SMEs with lead marketing teams build a differentiated brand that grows profitably. So, with a focus on positioning, differentiation, and profit-led branding, Ozan has been instrumental in guiding companies to stand out in the market,

overcome revenue platforms, and achieve effective marketing strategies. So, besides consulting, Ozan also shares his branding insights through his writing and steering strategies behind great brands to provide actionable advice. So, today, we will dive into his journey in branding, his approach to helping businesses differentiate themselves, and his insights on building a strong brand in a competitive market.

So, thank you for joining, Ozan, today. Thank you for inviting me. Happy to be here. Thank you. So, first of all, we'd like to know what inspired you to start Frontera, and what challenges did you face in the early days of building your brand strategy consultancy? So, what inspired me was purely curiosity. I followed what I like to learn about, and basically what I like to think about. And it brought me to here, basically.

I started a brand strategy consultancy. But, of course, in the early days, I was not sure about, hey, I mean, okay, I'm going to start a brand strategy consultancy, right? It started as a new setter and a blog, because I was sharing what I'm learning, especially related to mental models and how people make decisions. And, again, I kept following my curiosity. And, of course, one of the good things about building an audience is sometimes audience also leads you.

And in that case, of course, my audience was asking me a lot of questions like, hey, we have this problem, like, how can we solve? And that's how, actually, it organically became a brand strategy consultancy. So, that's how I basically navigated through that journey. The challenge was, of course, I mean, I had some personal changes in my life. So, I had a corporate job at the beginning. I was a product manager, and I had to leave because of changing a city.

And at that time, I was also starting with a new setter, and I already had some audience. So, the challenge was, hey, I mean, is it the right thing to fully focus on this? Or, actually, should I go back and look for another job? So, the challenge was that, but, I mean, in the end, everything worked out fine, and I'm here. Oh, yeah, awesome. And I'm curious, you know, how did you get, you know, you started a new setter, right?

And you have a new setter and, like, really great content. By the way, how did you get the first 1,000 followers or subscribers for the new setter? Or first 1,000 or 10,000? So, first 1,000, I think, came with a bit of, like, pushing through it, you know? Sharing the articles in different places. I started actually sharing them on Instagram, and then I was also learning about SEO at that time. Like, how can I grow it through SEO?

But the first 1,000 came through Instagram, Reddit, and some articles went viral on Hacker News. Especially, that was a big one. Like, two, three articles in a couple of weeks went viral, and, you know, Hacker News, I mean, you get a lot of visitors in one day. And that's how I got the first 1,000. I see. Was the blog about branding or positioning? At that time, it was mental models, as I mentioned. So, it was just a hobby, right?

Like, I had a full-time job, and I actually wanted to do something with what I've been learning, just because I liked it. And I was, again, learning about mental models, how people make decisions, how it affects actually buying, right? How people make purchase decisions. And as I was learning about this, I decided to write in the format of a blog and a newsletter. And, again, I was also learning, like, how can I grow this?

And it also taught me a lot about actually marketing my own business. And that was basically it. Interesting. Yeah, but why did you choose Instagram? Because, like, newsletter is usually a text format, but Instagram is a visual format, right? So, yeah, some people thought, yeah. So, at that time, Instagram was not like today, right? I mean, today it's much more, let's say, video-based. But at that time, I mean, text and images were still popular, especially the carousel format.

So, I just knew it because of a previous project that I had, and I started there. And, again, it worked fine for the beginning, very early days. But then I realized, of course, I mean, I had to do some other stuff. I then learned about how to grow a newsletter specifically. Besides SEO, of course, you know, I mean, newsletters also have a lot of specific growth platforms now. And I also discovered those.

I also made a lot of cross-promotions with other newsletters in the early days. And that's how I got the initial growth. Interesting. Yeah, also, like, related to newsletters. So, did you try to use other platforms, not only newsletters, but also, like, Medium? So, Medium.com or Substacks or, like, other newsletter platforms? No. Medium, I tried for a while, but it was not effective. Substacks, never. So, you chose your domains, and so started newsletters.

Correct. Correct. And when did you start it? So, the first one. It was, I believe, after COVID-2020, like, very early days. You know, I mean, we were in lockdown for a while, so I had a lot of time to think and do something different, like all of us. So, I think it was after, like, initial days of COVID, end of that year, probably, 2020. Yeah, thank you. And, yeah. So, as I, yeah, as we mentioned, so we love your newsletter, and we learn a lot.

But, so, yeah, we're just curious, like, you know, where is the resource or source of, like, your knowledge or information? So, before writing a newsletter, you are probably, so, researching or, like, you know, writing, making a draft. So, firstly, so where is the source of information you usually follow? And so, where is the place? So, you write a draft on newsletter. So, the source of information is basically everywhere.

You know, sometimes, I mean, I go for a walk, I see one new store open, for example, about a different product and I say, okay, what is this? And I research it, and then it gives me a story to write about, right? Sometimes it's like that. Sometimes, of course, I mean, the most common one is books. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of articles. And that's the most common one. And, of course, I mean, you know, if you want to write, you have to take a lot of notes.

Like, whatever you learn, you have to capture it somewhere so that you can transform all these ideas into an article format later on. And that's what I do. I mean, I use everything I live, like, any experience on the street or anything I read on a newsletter in a book, I capture them and then I use those for inspiration later on. Again, as I follow my curiosity, it's not kind of a work for me. Like, I like it.

I like to dig deeper in these type of topics, like marketing, branding, strategy in general. So, I do it every day, basically, and every time. I see, learning from everyday things, and that's awesome. And do you have any tools or notebook, you know, to keep your ideas? Do you carry notebook every day, every time, or do you take notes on Mac, Apple Notes? So, for quick note taking, like, from the example I just gave, let's say I saw something while walking on the street and I have to take it, I have to note it down, right?

I just use Apple Notes. I mean, it's the quickest, it's the easiest. I don't have to categorize or anything. It's just one simple notes file. And I just put every idea there, really rough, like, maybe the main idea, why I wanted to note it down, and also some details, and that's it. But after that, of course, I go through it on a regular basis, usually every couple of days. And I put them into a structure, and I take all of these notes, especially the important ones, to Notion.

In Notion, I mean, before I had a much more complex note taking system, but, I mean, in time I learned the hard way that actually I have to keep it simple because otherwise I spend a lot of time. So I have on the Notion just two categories. One is about ideas. Like, let's say, for example, if I read about a specific strategy, let's say progress making forces, right? What is it? I want to research it. I want to read books about it, and I want to write it in the future.

I note it down in the idea section. But if it's a story, let's say a story about an advertisement campaign, right? I categorize it under the stories file. So I also keep another file for stories, and I have two, basically, categories. One is about ideas, and the other one is about stories. That makes it very easy for me to whenever I want to write an article, I just go through my stories file, I choose a story, and I match it with an idea, and I write about it.

Interesting. Do you look back at, you know, maybe you are keeping notes for over, I don't know, five years, six years. Then do you look back at, you know, the old day notes or stories you mentioned? Always. And sometimes I even go back and read my own articles and newsletters. Because, I mean, I get an idea that I actually forgot, you know, and I remember I sometimes get a story that I forgot, so that I can reuse in the future.

I see. Because the articles you write are also notes, right, in the end. Very formatted, very polished, but they're also notes. I see. Yes, that makes sense. And how about editing process? You know, do you edit a lot, you know, or how long does it usually take when you write? I edit a lot. It's painful, you know. Before, I used to actually edit while writing and, I mean, it was very, even more painful. But now I write the first draft, like, very raw.

I just put down whatever I have in mind. Of course, still following a structure, but I allow myself to make mistakes. I allow myself to go into different directions. I finish the first draft and then I start editing. That way it's much quicker and much easier, less painful. I usually publish after, let's say, I usually publish the fourth draft or something. I see. And do you, I mean, you know, nowadays, you know, anyone can access Chachibiti or Anthropic Road and AI.

So do you use AI for editing or first draft, or do you have someone to review your draft, to brush up your content, or you're working by yourself? I use AI, but not for editing or writing. I use it for research. That makes research very quicker. And also for generating specific ideas. What I mean by that, for example, I wrote the article, let's say, and I have to choose a headline, right? If I don't have already a headline in mind.

I go to Chachibiti or Cloud AI, and I give it, of course, some directions, and I generate a lot of headlines, and then I choose one, I edit myself again, and then I use it. So first, for research purposes, and second, for generating very specific ideas. Do you ask someone to review your content before publishing? No. I see. I think this is like a very good question, but so when do you think it's ready to publish the newsletter or article?

So yeah, you edit and you write and edit, but tomorrow, so you can re-edit, right? You can edit forever, right? Forever, yeah. Correct. When do you think it's ready? I feel like, I have a feeling like, okay, this is good enough. You know, I say, okay, this is good enough. This has a, I think I'm transmitting the idea correctly, and it's simple enough, so I don't need to cut more things, you know, because then I might remove some important points, and I don't want to do that.

So it's a feeling, basically. Whenever I feel good enough, I publish. So I don't chase perfection. I mean, it can never be perfect, right? So whenever I feel like it's good enough, I publish. And you mentioned that, you know, you simplify in the editing process, right? As draft goes on, you simplify and remove unnecessary, but what criteria or what do you have in mind when you're editing? You said simplicity, right?

And do you have any other elements you care about when you're writing or editing in your process? So I always think about, can I make the section shorter without changing any meaning? And also after, like, sections, I also go to go down to sentence level. Can I make the sentence shorter? And that's what I mean by simplification. Like, if I can tell, if I can convey the same idea in a shorter, more concise way, I just do it.

Because that's the way I also want to read, like, whenever I read a book. If it's too complicated, like, if I have to, if it feels like work to me, I just stop reading, you know? That's why, I mean, I also don't want to do the same. I want to do the same for my readers. It has to be as simple as possible. Like, writing shouldn't come in front of the idea, you know? Writing is just a tool to convey the idea.

And it shouldn't feel like reading. You just have to read and it needs to feel natural. So that's what I'm aiming, let's say. I see. And I loved, you know, your writing, actually. Because in the Why Simple Brands Win, in your article, you mentioned that, you know, nobody has mental energy. Because people are busy and there's so many brands and people have no mental energy to figure out what brands stand for nowadays.

So I think, yeah, you really do that, you know, in your writing and editing process. And that's really impressive. Actually, you also talked about, like, Why Simple Brands Win article. I mean, branding is also similar, right? Branding, messaging, and positioning. It's like simplifying the idea behind the brand to its core, like what truly matters. And also conveying that idea to the potential customers. So I see, in that sense, I see similarities between just simplifying an article or simplifying the brands, the big idea behind the brand to its core, so that it can better get into customers' minds.

Yeah, I see. Yeah, that makes sense. And you said, you know, having several average products, you know, you should have really strong, one strong product or service, you know, not like dozens of average products or services. Correct. Like you, like Les. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, in that sense, you know, in your experience, you know, over the course of a decade or something, you know, you're helping people and consulting people, companies, and what are the most common branding mistakes that B2B SMEs are making, and how they can be avoided?

So there are a lot, of course, but let's talk about the common ones. I mean, first one is imitating bigger competitors. So if you are starting a new brand, I mean, the worst mistake, I mean, one of the worst mistakes you can make is just imitating what others are doing. Especially what other big brands are doing, because they are big brands, right? They can just do some other stuff that a new brand cannot or should not do.

And that's first mistake. Second is, so the first one is about differentiation. Second one is more about messaging. Like you can't talk about, you cannot talk about a lot of things about your product, like a lot of benefits, targeting a lot of different target audiences, target customer segments. You just have to, going back to the simplicity point, you just have to have three core messages, or one coming from one big idea, three core messages.

And you have to convey the same messages. You have to talk about the same messages in different ways again and again. If you repeat the same messages, of course, you can get into potential customers' minds, right? I see a lot of new brands are diluting their messages. They talk about different stuff, different benefits, different features, different products sometimes. And of course, the messaging then gets diluted and it's not effective.

So that's another one. And the third one is just taking a lot of action without any strategy behind. So I see a lot of brands, for example, doing a lot of marketing activities. They publish on some channels, some social posts. They do some SEO work. They advertise. They do lots of things, but there is no strategy behind, right? There is no, let's say, a proper funnel, a proper machine or an engine that drives customers through one stage to another.

And also taking, let's say, a holistic approach for customer acquisition. So all these random activities, yes, of course, they deliver some results, but they don't actually generate a lot of real value in the long term. So these are the three main mistakes I see, especially for new brands. I see. And I remember I read from your article that startups and nail companies try to copy, not competitors, but bigger companies like Apple, Nike, or something like that.

But they are so well-known brands so that they use really broad words, like meaning, oh, we are all in one place, something. But it doesn't mean anything at that moment. But now for the startup, companies started, new companies, and they need to be very specific, and that makes a lot of sense. And you mentioned it. Correct. Early on, especially, I mean, it also applies to bigger companies. But especially early on, very simple message, very clear message, and also ideally a distinct attention-grabbing message is very important for new brands.

And also you mentioned profit-led branding, right? Could you explain what profit-led branding means and how it differs from traditional branding approaches? So it's about actually how people see branding. You know, I also noticed this myself, like when I speak with founders or executives, they think branding as design, colors, packaging, typography. And of course, these are part of branding, but those come later, right?

I mean, first you need the positioning, the messaging, who are we going to target? What will be our strategy? So there's, let's say, a core piece of branding that's more important, that should come first before anything else. Because in the end, those ideas define what will come later, right? If you are going to have a design, like you have to look at competitors first, like to be different, right? So that's what I call my profit-led branding.

So the core idea behind the brand, before going into the design, typography, and let's say the visual elements that are necessary, that has to happen, of course, but they come later. Positioning and messaging, so you mentioned the first thing, so you are doing it. Correct. So is that right? But do you have any frameworks or tips when you start making or positioning or messaging? Because I'm not sure how to start with it.

So if we are a client, how do you start with it? Not us, anybody or any SM is for sure. So what we start is always actually with 3C analysis. I mean, it's kind of the basis of marketing. So you look at 3Cs, customers, competition, and the company. So you look at customer first to understand what they are trying to achieve, right? What is the real progress that they are trying to make? I mean, you are probably familiar with jobs-to-be-done framework.

So what are the functional outcomes that they are trying to achieve? What are the emotional ones? What are the social ones? And also, what are the blockers against achieving that outcome? So first is customer. Second is company. We look at the company. In your case, for example, Glasp, you have some talents. You have probably some other team members. You have some capabilities. You have a product. You have an offer.

For example, this podcast, which is an asset, you have a new setter as well. So we look at the company, like what can be the competitive advantage of this company? This is the second C. And the third C is the competition. Then you look at the competition to understand what they are doing, what they are good at, what they offer, and what are the unmet needs. So what is it that they are not providing to customers so that actually we can differentiate against them

and we can provide that value in a clear way? So this is, let's say, the basis of positioning. Only after looking at these three Cs, you can decide on targeting. You can decide on how you are going to be different. You can choose the attributes that you are going to differentiate on. For example, are you going to differentiate on size? Are you going to differentiate on features? Are you going to differentiate on a specific value like Patagonia and sustainability?

So there are, of course, a lot of attributes that you can differentiate on. But in order to decide on that, first you need to look at the customer, what they are trying to achieve. You have to know your competitive advantages, and you have to look at the competition to see what they are already providing well so that you don't go there and you do something else. I see. At the same time, how can companies ensure their branding aligns with customers' perceptions?

Should we do qualitative analysis or quantitative analysis? Do you have some metrics we should follow? What's the best way to ensure branding aligns with customers? What do you mean by branding aligns with the customer? You mentioned positioning, messaging, etc. That's from expectation, right? You do research and analysis, but how do we ensure that you consolidate to messaging and branding? But over time, audience change, target change, and people change.

How can we make sure that our branding fits with our right users, right customers? Do we have metrics we should follow, or should we talk to users? Of course. I mean, the qualitative and quantitative research, both are needed, right? But in this case, qualitative always performs better. Because when you, especially if you know what questions to ask, where you need to go, where you need to dig deeper while customer is talking about explaining something.

When I talked about jobs to be done, like the functional outcomes, the emotional outcomes, if you know what to ask the customer, you can always dig deeper and get to the core of their needs. You can understand their world better. Because again, in the end, they are trying to make progress in their lives, and your brand has to fit into their world so that they buy, right? So in that sense, of course, you need numbers as well, right?

You need qualitative data as well. But in this sense, quality always performs better. Interesting. Also, just curious about messaging. So what do you mean by messaging? So yeah, you mentioned three types of bigger message, or more like middle message you mentioned. And so three types of message. And so how do you test it out or crystallize messaging so that it is conveyed to customers and it's appealing to customers or potential customers?

Do you test weekly or how do you do it? Yes, so messaging is not something to test, actually. Because again, when we analyze customers, company and the competition, but especially customers, we are already analyzing with the data we have, right? The knowledge, again, qualitative and quantitative. So messaging should already come from that analysis. So actually, it's not something that you test. It's already coming from many tests you have done before, right?

And when I said three core messages, of course, this is within the framework we use. We choose three key messages for a brand and also three sub-messages for each. And then we repeat all these messages across social media. It can be newsletters, it can be advertising, it can be a sales tech. You can take these core messages, I say it's like three by three in metrics, but three core messages in the end. One can be about a core benefit that you would like to highlight, for example, about Glasp.

One can be about a value that you strongly believe in. And one might be the problem that you solve, that you want to highlight as a message, right? So you end up with a three by three metrics and you repeat these across all the channels so that customers get what you are trying to, how we are trying to help them. And to your point about messaging, what is messaging? What is positioning? So positioning, I think I explained in the previous question.

So positioning is in the end occupying a specific space in customer's mind relative to the competitors, right? So when we talk about, for example, Glasp, you explain it by saying a market category and customers immediately think about alternatives. For example, they might be thinking Notion as your competitors, even though it's not actually your competitor. Maybe you don't see it that way, but they might see it that way

and they might be comparing Notion to Glasp. Or they might be comparing, for example, Glasp to their physical notebook or Apple Notes. So in the end, your direct competitor is not only other browser extensions, for example, but many other stuff that customers compare Glasp to. And you have to position Glasp also against those competitors. So you have to define how you are going to position it in their minds.

And based on that positioning, you create your messaging. It's the three by three metrics that I mentioned. So you choose three core messages and you create three sub messages based on those. And then those are the messages that you communicate to the market. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think it's clear. And yes, thank you for telling your insights into Glasp and also branding. Actually, this is so helpful and valuable.

Happy to hear that. Oh, yeah. Thank you. It's so much valuable. Nowadays, you know, like AI is expanding, right? As we mentioned, like, you know, people can use AI for writing, like messaging, you know, like create content, create generated videos or audios. And I'm curious on how AI will impact the future of branding of companies. Is that helpful for companies? So I think execution work will get much cheaper.

So, for example, the design, right? Like I'm sure in five years or maybe 10 years, let's say, you will be able to just open your favorite AI tool. You will be able to give some inputs and you might get a full, let's say, branding, ready website design, ready colors about your idea and everything, you know. So the execution work will get much cheaper when it comes to branding. But again, we don't know yet.

We haven't seen anything about the strategy part that, okay, AI can do also the strategy, analyze a company end-to-end and also create a proper strategy to execute and win in a specific market end-to-end, right? So it still requires experts. It still requires a lot of human insights, let's say. So I think that part will be harder to change in terms of AI. But of course in the future, even that part might be automated and based on AI and we might be also just looking for other jobs.

Sorry, this is another common question maybe, but personal brand versus corporate brand. So in digital age of marketing, social media, how do you think is important for companies to build personal brand versus corporate brand? So meaning in some cases for new startups, the new companies and building the new branding, like a new brand, corporate brand takes time. So that, you know, if the founders becomes, let's say founders or people working there becomes famous, you know, through personal brand and it's easier for people, audience to recognize the corporate brand, right?

How do you think, how will it change over time or is it, do you have some advice or tips in this question? So I don't have any specific tips, but personal brand is also a brand, right? So it has to follow a similar, actually core idea to build a personal brand, but it's just another layer. I mean, it doesn't replace corporate branding, like you still, for example, of course you follow a lot of personal brands, but you still want to buy a Rolex, right?

Because it's the brand, it has some associations in our minds and people want to pay for those associations. And also, of course, the functional benefit, even though it's not that much in the case of Rolex, especially if you are not a diver or anything, people pay for the associations that it brings, right? People pay for the brand. And does Rolex have a personal brand that it uses? No. Coming to new brands, of course, I mean, if you already have a personal brand that you can leverage, go for it. It's a layer that you can use.

But eventually, especially again, if you're not trying to just only sell courses and keep your personal brand as the main thing, eventually you will have to build a corporate brand, right? So that actually other people can also work for that brand and grow it. And it also takes its own, let's say, shape. So long story short, I see it as a new layer, which is useful because now everybody can be in media companies.

And I also agree that early on, especially it's easier to leverage a personal brand, especially if you're starting from zero. But of course, long term, a corporate brand is needed and a personal brand doesn't replace a corporate brand. And so, related to long-lasting brands, how should we keep or how can we keep long-lasting brands? Because sometimes in the beginning, this is very sophisticated or elaborate brand that people want to buy or people want to use, but maybe 10 years or the brand identity was lost.

And somehow like, oh, this is kind of like cheap brand or no one wants to buy it. Sometimes this happens, right? So do you have any tips or advice to keep long-lasting brands? Internally for our company as well, how should managers or management keep it? So actually you summarized it perfectly. I mean, the world is changing, right? Nothing is constant. So what I said at the beginning about 3C analysis, customer, company, and the competition, all these are dynamic.

So customer needs and their words change. Your company changes, maybe it grows, maybe it doesn't grow and it stays the same. Maybe you lose some employees, you close a department, everything changes, right? And same with the competition. There are new competitors all the time. Some competition goes out of business. There are some new competition playing in a different way all the time. So you have to keep your eye on these 3Cs all the time.

But of course, it's not something to do every week, every month, maybe not even every year, but depending on the business. For example, in tech, it's of course, everything changes much faster. While for example, for FMCG, you can be, of course, look at it like for a longer time horizon. But what I'm trying to say is you have to keep your eye on these 3Cs, customer, competition, and your company. And you have to align your brand based on those changes.

Maybe you have to reposition your brand. Maybe you have to change your messaging, depending on the changes, so that you can stay up to date. Yes, services are important. But what really is a brand core identity, do you think? Is that like a mission of the company or like a vision of the company or like a mission story? So what is like internal, like most important thing for the brand? I think the most important thing is, first, the problem you saw for the customers.

Second, the associations that you have to build, you want to build. So mission, vision, all these are, of course, I mean, important, but I think they come later and they are not so necessary, especially for early stage companies. The first thing is the problem you saw for the customer, basically the value you create. And the second is the associations that you want to build in the customer's mind. Let me just elaborate on the associations, because I think I didn't explain it before.

So, for example, GLASP, you have this podcast and you are talking with different people. And you are trying to associate it with certain concepts, for example, knowledge, right? For example, note taking, knowledge management. So these are some associations that you have identified, of course, intentionally for GLASP. And you are trying to build it through this podcast, through your newsletters, by sharing, for example, the most liked articles that you found or your users told you.

So associations are basically these. And in the end, these associations also differentiate GLASP and allow GLASP to occupy a space in your users' and in your customers' minds. So that's what I mean by associations. Thank you. Thank you, yeah. And regarding to kind of long-lasting brand, also brand, how to say, change over time. So, you know, as startups solve the one problem, you know, then they want to – sometimes, you know, a company wants to become bigger so that they expand their business to either horizontally or deep into more like a complex problems, right?

When they evolve, yeah, expand their business, what should we care about? What's – how to say, should we have separate brand for one? But, you know, some companies have conglomerate, like a group company. So what's the best approach? What's the best way for companies to expand their business? So it's called actually brand architecture. And there is no one right answer. It depends on the company and it depends on the products and services that you would like to add to your offering, right?

For example, to GLASP, if you would like to add a very similar tool, but another extension, no problem. You could add it to GLASP brand. And maybe you have to redefine what GLASP stands for slightly. But in the end, it wouldn't change the meaning of the brand. Users would get it and there wouldn't be any problem for GLASP. But some businesses, some brands decide to expand in a totally different area, sometimes totally unrelated to their core business.

And that's when you have to be careful, like, should we add this to our existing brand? Should we use our existing brand equity for this new thing? Because it's a risk. Or should we just call it a new brand, like a totally different name and just allow it to grow on its own? So it depends on what you stand for. So I talked about Rolex. So Rolex is a luxury brand, right? And the worst thing you can do for a luxury brand is to create a cheap line.

So creating, let's say, Rolex Lite. It will destroy the brand. It will destroy the meaning of Rolex. So that's why they created Tudor, which is another watch brand coming from Rolex Group. And they allowed it to just grow on its own. Of course, it's more inexpensive. But it didn't affect what Rolex meant for people. So that's the key point. Like, I think the question to ask yourself is like, hey, would it change what we stand for?

Would it actually decrease our brand equity? Then you can decide on, for example, either calling it a new name, like a totally separate brand. You can say, you can call it a different brand, but say, hey, powered by GLASP, for example. Or you can just put under GLASP brands and you can just go with it. I see. But at the same time, sometimes I see, you know, like the brand use the same name. Let's say Amazon.

Amazon has marketplace, but at the same time, they have insurance, Amazon Music, Amazon TV. They use Amazon X, Y, Z all the time. Correct. Also, I think that works, right? Yeah, I'm not sure. Sorry. Yes and no. So it works. I mean, especially they feel like it works because it uses the brand equity Amazon has, right? But for example, YouTube is owned by Alphabet or Google, but YouTube is YouTube. For example, YouTube has a totally different place in your mind.

Of course, I mean, you are in tech. You know that it's owned by Alphabet. You know it. I know it. But for a lot of people, YouTube is YouTube. It has different associations in people's minds and it has a different place in your life, right? Again, some people might know that it's owned by Alphabet. Some others might not, depending on their interest in tech world. But it has its own place. It's a brand on its own.

So maybe Google Plus failed because of that. Because people associated it with Google and said, hey, Google's social network. I mean, no, I wouldn't use it. We don't know. So going back to Amazon, yes and no. Yes, of course, people see that it's from Amazon. And of course, they are more open to try it. But in the end, maybe that's why they are not so, so successful. Or eating from Amazon's brand equity when they fail.

I see. Interesting. Sometimes I hear that people say, oh, I don't like Facebook. I don't use Facebook messages. I use Instagram. I use WhatsApp. There you go. They are owned by the same company. Instagram is cool. Facebook is not, right? In their minds. I see. Yeah. Interesting. And do you have any personal favorite brands? And I'm curious why. So I talked about Rolex, for example. Rolex, I mean, I like it as a brand.

Because especially when I read about it, like when I learn about it, I see the intention behind every action that they took over the years to make what it is today, right? And for a brand strategist, it's, of course, very impressive what they've done. Apple is a classic example. But, I mean, I have to mention, like, it's also, again, the Steve Jobs. And you can see that actually he still lives like in Apple world,

like his mind, his intentions, his desire, his principles, still keeping Apple like what he desired. So Apple is another brand. And what else? I mean, I have a lot. But, yeah, these are, let's say, the ones that come to my mind for now. Nice. Is that, do you like them because of your professional or do you personally like the brand? Both. Oh, both, okay. Yeah. As I said, Rolex, I mean, I like it because I've seen the intention.

Like, it was by design, right? They are what they are today by design. Like, they intentionally designed today's Rolex. And that's impressive. And that's why I like that brand as a brand strategist. But also, yeah, I like Apple because of their products. And I also, again, coming from what Steve Jobs designed for Apple. I see. Have you considered working for the company to help the brand? Because now you are a brand strategist, right?

You help many people, many founders as a kind of individual contributor. But have you thought about joining, let's say, Rolex and help the brand or part of the brand? Have you considered about it? Or you prefer working outside? No, I prefer being independent. I mean, that also allows you, that allows me to see different companies, which is something I like, you know, learning about different companies, what they do, how they do it, their competitive advantages,

their competitors, how they can differentiate. So, in the end, it's problem solving. And I like it. And I like to solve more problems. While going into just one business and staying there, it gets, of course, a bit repetitive over time. So, that's why I prefer being independent in that sense. I see. That makes sense, yeah. So, sorry, time is running out. But, you know, so you gave us a lot of, you know, and also our audience,

a lot of, you know, advice and lessons that you learned throughout your life and experience, but careers. Do you have any more advice to, let's say, to entrepreneurs or business owners starting a company nowadays, these days? So, one advice I can give is actually something we talked about, the power of focus, especially for a new business, right? By a new business, maybe new is not the accurate term, but I should say an early stage business.

The focus is what matters, right? The focus on the target customer segment, a specific one. Focus on your message. Focus on probably one or two marketing channels that work. Because if you try to do a lot of things, if you try to communicate a lot of messages, if you try to go to many different channels, and then it doesn't work, it dilutes your activities, it dilutes the power of your message. And in the end, it doesn't get into customers' mind.

Because again, we talked about Facebook and Instagram. I mean, today, customers are busy, right? Their minds are busy. Like we see a lot of reels. How many reels do we see? On average, probably we see a lot of videos, articles, YouTube videos, short form videos. So they are busy and they don't want their mind to work more to understand your message. So that's why focus on your positioning, focus on your message,

and also focus on your marketing channels, I think is an advice that I can give. And also focus on focus. I think that's what I said. Exactly. Thank you. Yeah. Great advice. And so this is the last question. But, you know, since Glasp is a platform where people can live what they are leading and learning as a digital legacy, we want to ask you, what legacy or impact do you want to leave behind for future generations?

So it's a big question. Wow, that's a really big question. Okay, so legacy. I don't believe in legacy so much, but of course it exists, right? I mean, we still, for example, we talked about Steve Jobs in this call. It's his legacy. But did he do all these to leave a legacy? Or did he do all these because that's what he believed in? That's what he wanted to do while living, you know? So that's the way I see it.

Like, I don't want to, I don't do anything for building a legacy. I just do it because, again, that's my curiosity. I follow it. And it allows me to do good work for me. And if some people appreciate it, that's great. If I can help some people, some businesses, some brands by following my curiosity, that's perfect. And if some people read and like my articles, again, it's a side benefit. It's perfect. But I'm not doing it to leave a legacy.

Again, if some people talk, if my friends and my family talk about me positively after I'm gone, that's already a big win. All the rest is, let's say, a side benefit. Yes. Really beautiful. Yes. Thank you again. Yeah. And thank you so much for taking time today. We really enjoyed the conversation and learned a lot from your experience. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

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How to Build a Differentiated and Profitable Brand in the Market with Ozan Irturk

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